From Crisis to College: Navigating the Path to Autonomy
In this episode, Michael shares what paved the way for his neurodivergent son's journey to high school graduation and college readiness after residential treatment. He highlights how step-down programs, collaborative co-parenting, and patient support ultimately had a positive impact on his son. Packed with honest insights on navigating teenage growth and letting go of crisis-mode fear, this conversation offers real hope for families in similar shoes.
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Introduction to Life After Treatment
Tiffany: Welcome back to our third episode. We're so excited to have you again, Michael. Thank you for coming.
Michael: It's great to be here.
Tiffany: Yeah, I'm excited to hear this! For our listeners and viewers, we're going to be talking about what life has been like since your son came home, and we're in for a treat. I'm excited!
Michael: Yeah, it's my favorite part because it's a real contrast if anyone has been listening to the first two pieces of what we've put together here.
Tiffany: Let's start, though, with what it was like bringing him home at the very beginning.
Michael: Okay. So I'm going to have to reframe this because I recognize that the coming home piece is an outcome that most people and families want. It was not ours. He did not come home.
Tiffany: That's right. That's right.
Michael: Let me give more context on this- and that's okay. Coming home is what parents want because it's an environment that can be supportive of their child- friends, school, family, those things that create a family environment. That was not our situation. My family is kind of fractured and had become distant over time. His mom is from Hungary, and her family is in Budapest. We've flown there to visit family every year, but coming home for him was not going to be a literal step.
As we watched our son, he did come home for periods of time.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: But the pattern was pretty consistent. He would come home, and there were not enough supports to help him continue the success he had gained. So he would gain some success, come home, and then revert. That happened three times. The team- not just his mom and I, but the ed consultant and other professionals, including people at the program- was pretty clear as we talked about what the next step would be. Coming home was never really in the mix.
Tiffany: Just to pause right there real quick: I think it's important for our listeners to know that in a residential treatment setting, you typically have home visits as a child progresses in the program.
Michael: Yes, and he did. He would come home.
Tiffany: Yeah, and those home visits are really tests.
Michael: Yep.
Tiffany: They're to see if you are able to use your skills at home.
Michael: Absolutely. When Kris had home visits, he would do pretty well. The challenge for us, and the pattern, was that he would complete a program, do really well, come home, and then very quickly revert back to old behaviors and coping mechanisms. He would become assertive and aggressive in ways that were not conducive to life. He did better outside of the home for whatever reason- maybe that's another episode.
Kris was finishing his sophomore year, and he wasn't going to come home. We talked to him about this. I understand that home is fundamentally and conceptually important to any child. It's like home base, mom and dad. I would never suggest that we didn't want that for him. The challenge was that home, as a long-term plan, was clearly not going to be the best choice.
I talked about this with him very sincerely, and my question to him was, "What are you coming home to?" His answer was, "Mom and Dad."
I said, "Yeah, okay, but other than your mom and dad, what are you coming home to?"
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Unfortunately, his journey took him out of public school.
Tiffany: That's right.
Michael: He never had the opportunity to maintain those relationships. The friendships he had when he was younger, prior to his challenges, mostly fell apart as kids moved out of the neighborhood and moved on. He kept in touch with them electronically, but not in person.
Choosing the Right Educational Path
Michael: He didn't have any continuity at a school. In Jersey City, the public school system is not the best choice for kids who want to do well academically. So he went to a private school, which a lot of families did. He got kicked out of that school and had not been in a "school school" -like most people think of- since 2018. Our best choice for him was figuring out the next best step to continue supporting him and the success he had gained in completely changing his behavioral approach to life and relationships with authority figures.
This was going to be a transition period because you finish high school, you graduate, and then you face the "what do you do next" phase. We were put in touch with an ed consultant who specializes in high school and college- particularly colleges for kids who are challenged and need some extra support. It was a difficult decision, but it was the right one. It just was.
Tiffany: I love that you bring that up, because going home isn't always the story for every family. In my experience, I would say maybe half- or sometimes less than half- go to a transition program.
Michael: Another program.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: Because you realize that you don't just fix the child. You have to look at the whole system and ask what is going to set them up for success.
Michael: Correct. So for Kris, as a team with the experts that we relied on- the ed consultant and staff- the considerations on paper were a bit of an "I don't know."
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He arrived at Discovery Ranch in December of 2018, and we started talking about next steps a year later.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He didn't leave the program until February or March of the following year, so he was there for 15 months. When we started talking about next steps, on paper, he was a high-risk kid- both from an institutional organization perspective...
Tiffany: Yes.
Michael: ...and from a dysregulation perspective.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: So we looked at a few options. All were in this area: one was up in Orem that specializes in kids who are neurodivergent, another was down in Parowan, and the third was down in Cedar City. Each of them was a step down in structure and offered an increase in freedom, agency, and autonomy where he could make his own choices. Yet they still had the expertise to deal with kids who dysregulate and have a history of acting out behaviorally- like hitting, kicking, and punching. They are experts in that.
He chose...
Tiffany: Oh, really?
Kris's Transformation and Maturity
Michael: What I did with him... and his mom agreed. She was absolutely on board with this. He had just become... I wish I had someone here with me who knew my son eight years ago who could share this. I'm his dad, but who he had become was unrecognizable compared to who he was five, six, or seven years ago- particularly for someone who had witnessed him when he was dysregulated and really coming off the rails. He had almost no incidents. His level of maturity was astounding sometimes.
Tiffany: Really...
Michael: I literally caught myself. I said to his mom a couple of times, "I can't believe that just came out of his mouth"- just the sheer maturity. For whatever reason, and I know Discovery Ranch supported him, but Kris did the work. He just matured. Returning home was not a good choice for him, and choosing it would have been dumb. I'm sorry, it just was.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: It would have been a choice out of traditional programming and expectation, which I don't subscribe to. The best thing- and his mom, myself, and the whole team agreed- was for him to finish high school under the umbrella of these types of programs.
So we talked about it. We were offered four options. One was in New York, I think.
Tiffany: So closer to home.
Michael: Yeah, much closer to home. And the other three were out here in Utah. His mom and I went and visited the one in New York, and then we agreed that I'd fly out here, pick him up, and he and I would do the tour together.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: We hopped in a car...
Tiffany: I love it.
Michael: ...and scheduled all the meetings. He and I drove around to a program in Orem, hopped down to Parowan, and then went down to Cedar City to the third one.
I want to describe something that will allow listeners to understand- particularly if they've listened to who this kid was two years ago- and I'll never forget it. We were visiting one of the programs in Parowan, meeting with the director. My son had earned all the privileges that a child could earn at Discovery Ranch. He had lots of freedom, the maximum amount of freedom, and he excelled. He was top tier- a level no neurodivergent kid had ever reached before. He was just doing really well.
So transitioning from that program to another one, the staff at the new program are looking at him on paper, right?
Tiffany: Oh, yeah.
Michael: They have their rules and regulations...
Tiffany: And on paper, he probably did not look great.
Michael: Right. He looked good, but one of the things he loved- and that really helped him, like a security blanket- was his phone. Not that he was playing games on it, but just having it. Coming into this new program- or any of the programs we spoke to- the rule was no phone at first. The first month is a probationary period. It wasn't a punishment; they just needed to see how he would do. If it went well, he would get it back quickly- not months, but a couple of weeks or a month at most.
We sat down with the director, Matt, and I watched my son negotiate with this guy and advocate around the rule, using his track record to ask for his phone. I was speechless watching. He was sitting there negotiating and advocating, which I had never seen before.
And I'll be damned Matt listened, pushed back, listened. My... And it was a mature... It was like two adults... where this young man, my boy-
Tiffany: Who had been in a placement...
Michael: ...who used to just fly off the handle... Just watching him was extraordinary. I wish we had filmed it! And I'll be damned, Matt said, "Okay, we have flexibility here." That was one of the things we liked about the program: there was flexibility. After discussing it and watching my son, Matt said, "Okay, I'll make a deal with you. We'll let you have it on a probationary period."
And you know what the beautiful thing is?
Tiffany: Yeah?
Michael: He never used the damn thing.
Tiffany: He just wanted it?
Michael: He just wanted to have it. But to see the kid who- whenever he wanted something and someone in authority pushed back- used to blow up and go after them...
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: ...to watch him sit back with such maturity and intelligence to negotiate with this guy...
Tiffany: Huh.
Michael: And a win was really just beautiful. That was one of those moments like, "Okay, now I really get it."
Yeah, so he did that, and he actually chose that program himself.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: He ended up choosing it. They had a... he loved the horsemanship thing and really excelled at it. The equine therapy piece, if you will- it has got to be something other than therapy, but that is what they call it. Having these boys develop relationships with horses and animals that are intelligent and very sentient really helps them connect with themselves and learn how to manage themselves, because that is how horses are.
Tiffany: Yeah. Especially for a child on the spectrum-
Michael: On the spectrum.
Tiffany: -horses are great because horses mirror your body language. They mirror what you bring to the table, and-
Michael: They read your energy.
Tiffany: Yeah, they read your energy.
Michael: Sorry. That is what it is. It's a vibration.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: It just is.
Tiffany: Absolutely.
Michael: They feel- they read the vibe.
Tiffany: And they are less threatening than having a conversation with a human, where you have to read body language and try to read between the lines. It's hard. It's hard for a kid on the spectrum.
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: So animals are a lot safer-
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: -especially horses.
Michael: Yeah, and my son loves animals.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Always has, and he loved that piece at DR. So the decision was made. "Home" for him was going to be continuing his high school journey in places that he got to choose.
He attended that program. The ed consultant was really smart about this, and I loved it. What she wanted- she said, "This needs to be a step." Going from Discovery Ranch directly into a regular school didn't sound like the best choice for him; he needed an intermediate step.
The program he went into was a step down in structure and restrictiveness from Discovery Ranch. He was only at that program for three or four months to finish up his sophomore year. Academically he was done, and behaviorally it didn't make sense for him to stay there anymore.
The next step was a school that is basically a normal prep school-
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: -a residential type of school with some extra support.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: That's all. Like a one-on-one mentor, counselor, once-a-week outpatient therapy, and going to school with a bunch of other kids. This was his first coed experience, too, so that was a nice piece as well.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: His mom and I wanted that from an experience perspective, so he could learn how to begin to... "what is it like being around girls?"
Tiffany: Oh, yeah.
Michael: Not that he had to learn anything specific, but it's different than just being around boys. So it was a great choice. He did really well academically.
A couple of really cool things happened that, from a parent perspective, were just awesome. He took it upon himself to apply to and get hired at Walmart, and he had a part-time job while he was going to high school.
Tiffany: That is so cool.
Michael: You could have knocked me over with a feather! I was like, "You what?"
He said, "Yeah, I'm starting work at Walmart next week."
I was like, "Holy crap."
You know, from a parent perspective, that hurt a little bit too. I was super happy and proud of him, but it also hurt- kind of like the feeling of not getting to teach your kid how to ride a bike.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He was doing driver's ed out here working toward his license, but I did put him behind the wheel, so I got to do that with him.
Tiffany: Oh, okay, good.
Michael: Yeah, when I came out to visit him. I started that spring while he was still at DR. That's right. I told Chris Brown, because I knew driving was coming up.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: I put him behind the wheel right over here in Springville. Yeah, that's where it was.
Tiffany: Okay. Okay.
Michael: I put him behind the wheel and let him drive around the block to practice- brake, stop, signal, look, go. So he got his license there, and he got a job.
Tiffany: Job... license...
Michael: Driver's ed, passed, got his license. Met...
Tiffany: Experience with girls…? Which is huge!
Michael: That literally was coming out of my mouth!
Tiffany: Oh, was it?
Michael: And met-
Tiffany: Okay. Met...
Michael: Met and started a relationship with a girl, and they really hit it off and became boyfriend and girlfriend.
Tiffany: Oh, I just have to stop you because...
Michael: Errr.
Tiffany: No, yeah. Sorry! It's just so amazing to hear. You started off the story with your son being so dysregulated, aggressive, and spinning out. Now he has made the progress of realizing he could be empowered and build the confidence to make his own choices and manage the internal storm he had going. To see him making all these huge steps now- for a kid who is on the spectrum and neurodivergent-
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: -is huge!
The Challenges of Teenage Relationships
Michael: And then venture into the incredibly tumultuous waters of having a girlfriend-
Tiffany: Huge...
Michael: -on top of everything. It's...
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: And to watch him navigate it so well. The school had... There were forces in play inside him that he had never experienced before: teenagers, hormones, and everything that comes with that.
Tiffany: Oh, yeah.
Michael: They couldn't kiss, they couldn't cuddle. There were some very strict rules around when and where they could do whatever they wanted, and he navigated it really well. I never heard anything about it. I know he was not perfect, and I would never expect him to be, but...
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: ...he navigated that, too.
Tiffany: That's huge.
Michael: This is a kid who used to be ready to kill for a bag of trail mix from me.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: To go from that to negotiating the forces of nature inside him as a young man with a girlfriend...
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: ...and being able to manage that under those rules just blows my mind.
Tiffany: Yeah, that's huge. If you have a kid on the spectrum, you know how major these steps are and how much progress that takes.
Michael: On one hand, it's sad that I didn't get to witness all of it in person, but I have afterwards. He was attending this program, and the original plan was for him to finish his junior and senior years there. The school is actually a prep school that has a relationship with Southern Utah University, so the plan was for him to start taking some university classes to see how that felt, with the potential of going to college out here after graduating.
Of course, that was my plan, and you know the old adage: you make plans, and God laughs.
Tiffany: Yes.
Michael: This young woman was leaving the program in February- he had arrived in September, and she was leaving that February. That relationship was more important to him than fulfilling my plan. He took it upon himself- and we talked about it, but he actually initiated it before we really spoke- to accelerate his academics and graduate from high school a year early so he could leave.
She is from the East Coast, and they wanted to be together and have access to each other, which is a little more convenient than her being on the East Coast and him out in Utah. We talked about it, and in the spirit of wanting to offer him more autonomy, agency, and sovereignty over steering his life, his mom and I said, "Okay. We want that for him. Let's do it."
If you want to create a field of opportunity for someone to experience struggle, pain, and life experience, getting into a romantic relationship is definitely it.
Tiffany: All's fair in love and war.
Michael: Right! That is such fertile ground. If it was going to be an opportunity for him to have life experiences that would test him- where he is either going to succeed or fail- that was where I was at as a parent. With the arc of transformation I had gone through in how I saw my role in his life, I was beginning to step back and be more of a guide and support rather than a steerer.
Tiffany: Yeah. Instead of jumping in and telling him what to do.
Michael: So we supported it, and he graduated a year early from high school-
Tiffany: Wow.
Michael: -with a 3.8 GPA, getting his driver's license and going through all of that stuff. He took it upon himself, applied to college, got accepted, and earned a scholarship.
Tiffany: Oh, my goodness. What was his graduating GPA?
Michael: A 3.8.
Tiffany: Oh, my heavens.
Michael: A year early.
Tiffany: A year early! And before this, he was behind, right?
Michael: Yes. When he landed at Discovery Ranch, he was about five or six months behind. It was not insignificant, but it was not insurmountable. It was enough. But he put it together, and now we are in the throes of all the preparation that goes into helping a child transition into higher education and college.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Which is a lot. It's crazy- housing and everything else.
Here is another good point in the spirit of romantic relationships and difficulties: his mom and I agreed we were not going to support them living together at college, and we had to communicate that to him.
Tiffany: How did he take that?
Michael: It was nice to see him go through it. His reaction was almost nothing- it was like he expected it. He was sad, but body-language sad, not angry. He said, "Yeah, I understand." Literally, he moved through the feeling of sadness and moved right into "I get it."
Tiffany: Yeah. Regulated.
Michael: An acceptance...
Tiffany: He stayed regulated through a difficult emotion.
Michael: Very regulated. So his plan is to be a freshman in college come September, moving on to this next amazing chapter in his life.
I even explained this to him. I asked, "What do you think college is about?" From his perspective, it was studies and math and so on. I said, "That's a piece of it, but only a small piece." It's like when you get a shot: most of the liquid going into your body is just a carrier to deliver the medicine. In college, academics are just one piece.
Tiffany: Absolutely.
Michael: The rest of what happens around it are opportunities to expand your perspective in life and give you experiences to set you up for the rest of your life.
Tiffany: You launch into adulthood.
Michael: Yeah, and...
Tiffany: Which is more than just passing a test in class.
Michael: Right. Learning how you're going to support yourself, finding something you enjoy, going out and having fun, and meeting people who aren't in a program setting.
Tiffany: Yeah. Or even just the simple things in life. I remember going to college and realizing, "I've got to create a shopping list, figure out meal plans, and do my own laundry." There's no one there to do it for you.
Michael: And no one is going to tell you to do it.
Tiffany: Yeah, no one is going to tell me.
Michael: Unless you have a pile of stinky laundry and the dorm supervisor comes over.
Tiffany: No one's going to tell you to change your bed sheets; you have to decide that yourself.
Michael: Yeah. So that's where he is now.
Tiffany: Yeah. Wow.
Michael: We're in the throes of that.
Neurodivergence and the Path to Adulthood
Tiffany: I want to touch on something first. I think it's important for our listeners to hear that for a kid who is neurodivergent and on the spectrum- and I know I keep saying that, but just to educate and help put things into perspective- it's not uncommon not to go home right out of a program. Their maturity process takes a little bit longer. Those neurotransmitters and creating those new neural pathways in their brain-
Michael: Neurotransmissions, yes.
Tiffany: -it takes time. It takes sometimes double-
Michael: To mold that neuroplasticity-
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: -into a different structure.
Tiffany: It does. So it's not uncommon-
Michael: Yeah. No, it takes time.
Tiffany: -to realize they're not going to just...
Michael: It takes time.
Tiffany: ...come straight home.
Michael: There is no quick fix for kids like my son.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: It's time, patience, and persistence.
Tiffany: Lots of patience.
Michael: Clinically, you nailed it. It's about undoing the grooves of neural pathways-
Tiffany: Yep.
Michael: -that took him to dysregulation and reaching out to coping mechanisms, and having those new neurons and neural pathways connect and begin to fire on a regular basis-
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: -which drives new behavior.
Tiffany: Well, and their brain is wired differently. They can gain empathy. They can start developing their frontal cortex and be able to make decisions ahead of time, right? Thinking ahead. That doesn't come naturally.
Michael: Not to them, no.
Tiffany: Not to them. Helping them process through, "Okay, when I'm in a relationship, when I say this and I see her body language react this way..." It's not natural for them to be like, "Oh, she's angry." It takes that extra effort for them to make those connections. So it's-
Michael: They don't pick up on the social cues...
Tiffany: -it's a longer process on so many levels to launch them into adulthood. For parents who may not be used to having a kid on the spectrum or who is neurodivergent, it's frustrating because it's like, "Well, you're 18. You should be an adult now."
Michael: Right, which I find myself saying sometimes, too: "You're 17." I have to stop myself, catch myself, and say, "No, he sees things differently. He doesn't think like you do. And you have decades of experience, Michael. Give the kid a break." I literally find myself saying that to myself verbatim.
Tiffany: Well, I think most parents need to say that. I have to say that to myself, too. I'm like, "Oh, my daughter's 14. Of course she's going to leave all her lunch out on the table," and I have to help her remember to put it away when I just want to say, "Just put it away."
Michael: Yeah. This is so wonderful to talk about. He doesn't live with me, so I don't see him every day, and I am still working on processing through the trauma and what it was like to experience that with him.
Tiffany: Absolutely.
Michael: Waiting for the other shoe to fall... it has dissipated, and it's gotten softer and softer, but it's still there sometimes. The evidence keeps coming forth with him around: is he going to make it at college? Is he going to know what to do and be organized?
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Every time I'm in that place of, "Oh man, I wonder if..."
Tiffany: I remember...
Michael: ...I'll be talking to him...
Tiffany: ...go ahead.
Michael: ...and saying, "Hey Kris, okay. I'm behind you. I'm going to be looking over your shoulder, but I'm not doing it for you."
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He's like, "Yeah, Dad, I got it." And then I hear something from him like, "All right, Dad, I've got to put this on my calendar." He's using a fricking calendar! Mic drop. I was like, "Okay." That alone- especially for my son- was mind-boggling. I was like, "Okay, he's using a calendar to remind himself he has to finish this questionnaire by next Tuesday."
Tiffany: And I just remembered the term that I was trying to say in the last episode.
Michael: Brené Brown?
Tiffany: Brené Brown, where you're anticipating the next shoe to drop. It's "foreboding joy." It's when-
Michael: Oh, yeah. I heard her say that a while back.
Tiffany: Yes. You remember that?
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: I just love it, though, because-
Michael: Yeah, foreboding joy.
Tiffany: -especially if you're in trauma or you've had PTSD, and you're like-
Michael: "I'm happy, but the other shoe's going to drop."
Tiffany: Yeah, like-
Michael: "And I feel foreboding with my joy."
Tiffany: Yes.
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: Exactly. But just you talking about that- having such a history with your son of, "Okay, he's doing really good, now when is something bad going to happen?" -it's hard. It's a vulnerable place to be. But getting to see him make those choices- putting things on his calendar, getting a job, applying to college, getting a scholarship- all of that is helping you guys heal and build that confidence in your relationship again.
Michael: Yeah.
Co-Parenting Through Challenges
Tiffany: I want to shift gears to your relationship with his mom, because I really need our viewers to hear this. Coming from a divorce background myself, I have a lot of empathy. I know how difficult and painful it is. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It's so hard to describe. Yet, at the same time, when you have kids, it's so incredibly important for you to co-parent, work together, and put aside your own pain. Talk to my viewers about how you and his mom have done that.
Michael: It probably begins when she and I met. When we were getting to know each other, one of the things we agreed on in the context of our relationship was that we would never stay married just for the benefit of the kids. We weren't willing to sacrifice staying together because of outside influences if we weren't happy. If it wasn't working, we weren't willing to pretend.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: We talked about it because I had been married before, and she had too.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: So we came into the relationship having had that experience, and we were pretty candid about it.
Tiffany: That takes a lot of maturity and insight, honestly...
Michael: I would never call myself mature at the time- but thank you. In some ways, I was much like my son.
You'd have to ask her about her perspective, but from mine, I was pissed. I'm going to own it. I wasn't shy about it, though I wasn't abusive. I was mad at her, and I blamed her because she wouldn't get help. I'm so sorry I took that stance, but I came into the relationship with more awareness around healing and asking for help. That just wasn't her or her culture; it wasn't what she grew up with. She was so lost- not because she's naive or dumb, she's a smart woman- but there was no context in her life experience, particularly coming from where she came from, for her to know where to begin.
So even with my suggestions pointing her to ask for help, from my perspective, I was pissed because she didn't fulfill what I asked of her in a way that met my approval. I was really pissed. I really was. And I got called out on that, too, and I apologized to her. We talked about this.
We were a really good couple. We were very much in love, had fun, and both wanted to be parents and looked forward to it. Although in hindsight, I can see it was from a perspective of naiveté- for both of us. I'll speak for myself, but that was what I loved about her. She said, "The most important thing for me in life is becoming a mom," and I said, "Great. I want to be a dad."
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: So off we went. And Kris brought out the weaknesses where we didn't align. He exposed those weaknesses and differences in our approach. They weren't grand, but they were there.
I blamed her for coddling him and enabling him- like brushing his teeth for him because he wouldn't brush his own teeth. Practicing my approach now, I look back and ask, "Was I guilty of the same damn thing and just making it about her?"
As Kris went through what he went through at different stages- increasingly when we left the New Jersey system and entered the private system with Discovery Ranch- we worked on our relationship, too. We began to take ownership to the best of our ability. I stopped holding her to a standard of expectation that wasn't appropriate or right for me to hold her to. She is who she is, and she did the best she could. Just because I didn't think she did it the way I wanted her to didn't give me the right to minimize or demean her level of effort. It gave me the opportunity to see her with different eyes and see her for who she was, rather than who I wanted her to be in the context of my son and his challenges.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: We're still friends. We're not romantically linked or anything like that, but she is my son's mom, and I think she does a great job. I think she feels the same about me. We never went to the place of using our son as a weapon against each other or as a bargaining chip.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He was never a pawn. One of the things that we were complimented on- and I don't want to be shy about it...
Tiffany: No, please don't.
The Importance of Mutual Respect in Parenting
Michael: What the programs complimented us on was that our desire and purpose as parents were really in alignment. We were both there and wanted this for our son. We wanted to have an experience with our son that was different than it had been- because it sucked. It was horrible, and we wanted a better experience. Not necessarily together, but individually: for her as a mom, and for me as a dad.
We hung out together a little bit. We don't vacation together, but we came to the parent weekend, and we started splitting up the visits. She would visit him, and the beautiful thing was that when she visited him, there was no threat. There was no potential for an issue.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: That was always a problem before. My son targeted women. He really went after women- however he experienced it, that was one of the things he did. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that was a problem, particularly with his mom.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: She couldn't be with him. It wasn't necessarily her fault, but now she could take him off and be out playing around in Utah for three or four days, drop him off, and there was no issue.
Tiffany: No issue. Oh, wow.
Michael: That was like, "Oh, my God." Yeah, I was so happy for them. It wasn't easy. Yeah, it sucked. It's like, what do you want? Do you want to suffer forever, or do you want to make the hard choice, suffer through the emptiness for a short period of time, and have the curiosity to see what life fills it with?
Tiffany: I love that, because sometimes I've had divorced couples come into my office who can't even be on the same phone call- even while their kid is suicidal, struggling, or possibly in trouble with the law. Whatever the reason...
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: ...they're in so much pain. I tell them, "I can see that you're both in so much pain, but can we just pause it? You can go take care of your own pain outside of this, but right now your child needs to be the focus." That takes a lot of healing and insight. It takes getting over being selfish, honestly.
Michael: It took some managing. For Kris's first program, the director gave me the riot act around that. She really called me out on it.
Tiffany: Yeah. Rather than making each other suffer in pain... I remember being told, "You guys have been through a lot of pain, but now is the chance to make your kids the center of attention and not have them be in pain anymore." Because the only ones who suffer are the kids. When you make each other suffer, the kids suffer the most.
So you saying you can either go through long suffering or a short period of suffering to see what... I can't remember how you phrased it, but you phrased it much more beautifully than I am.
Michael: You can suffer continuously, or suffer for a short period of time in the emptiness that will open up- the void. And then have some curiosity around, "Okay, what will life fill it with?"
Tiffany: Exactly. And you also mentioned how you respected his mom. You cared about her and respected her. You maybe-
Michael: I didn't respect her for a long time. I learned to.
Tiffany: You learned to. Thank you.
Michael: That happened because I became self-aware and changed the lens through which I saw her. I was looking at her-
Tiffany: Oh, thank you.
Michael: -through the lens of the expectations I had for myself.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: And shocking to me, she's not me.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: It's that simple. It's not easy, but that is what was going on for me, distilled down to the simplest form. She's not me. I was doing to her what my dad did to me. I was perpetuating the generational trauma, if you will.
Tiffany: So the key thing for our listeners is that it takes work. There is a chance to forgive and move on, no matter how badly the other person has hurt you. Ultimately, though, your child needs to be the focus.
Michael: Yes. Yeah, he was.
Tiffany: That's what I wanted to bring to our listeners: how amazing that story is, because sadly, it's very unique. Having two divorced parents come into my office and be able to work together is not the norm. To make their child the focus and have respect and care for the other person- through the difficult pain they're already in- is incredible.
Michael: On top of the pain, suffering, and challenges with our son's situation.
Tiffany: Exactly.
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: Yeah, that's what I meant.
Michael: We piled it on pretty thick during that period of time. We really did.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: And we made it. We lived through it.
Tiffany: I just love your story of hope and healing. For those of our listeners who may be struggling with co-parenting- where it's messy, and they have a child on the spectrum or struggling with mental health issues- there is hope.
Embracing Normal Teenage Struggles
Michael: He's not Mr. Wonderful. He's not Mr. Perfect. He's a normal kid now, and we have what I now understand are normal teenage issues.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: He still copes a bit. He's gaming a little bit more than we'd like, but he's aware of it. His relationship with food is still a coping mechanism, but he's aware of it, and he wants to study nutrition. He wants to address that as part of his college experience. But my point is, yes, it's possible. Yes, there is hope. Just beware of what you're expecting.
Tiffany: Oh, yeah. You're still going to get a knucklehead teenager back at home, or wherever. You're not getting a grown adult leaving the program, even if they're 17 or 18.
Michael: I know...
Tiffany: You're still going to have your challenges, but they're going to be normal teenager challenges, right?
Michael: Yeah. It's so funny- I just remembered this. I used to say to myself that 75% of the time with my son sucked- like an 80/20 ratio. 80% suck, 20% okay, and sometimes 90/10. I just wanted 60/40! I could deal with 60% crisis, crap, and nonsense that came with his challenges if I could just get 40% okay and normal. And I got more than that. I really did. I think it's more like 90/10: 90% of the time he's just a regular kid finding his way. He's on his journey at 17.
My challenge- and I recognize this- is that I don't remember being 17. I can't remember what it felt like, and my biggest struggle with him is just being patient with him.
Tiffany: Yeah. It's hard as an adult when we've had so many years of experience and learning, and our brains have developed and matured. Not fully matured-
Michael: No-
Tiffany: -still got a ways to go...
Michael: -but I get your point.
Tiffany: -but it's hard to remind ourselves...
Michael: I have decades of experience and awareness. I didn't have this awareness as a teenager.
Tiffany: Yeah. Love it.
Michael: "Give him a break" kind of a thing. And I'm finding that, as a dad, I'm really settling into this place of: "this is kind of fun." I mean that.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Except for when he was younger and we would play on the bed, wrestle, and have "daddy beat-up time," I haven't felt that with him for like 10 years. It's so cool. Now I get to watch him grow, expand, stumble, and mess up- and be okay with him messing up. It's okay, man. Nobody's hurt? Cool. We can get a new car. The car is replaceable.
Tiffany: What a beautiful thing. Honestly, in my own personal life, I'm entering the teenager world now, and I'm just...
Michael: Buckle up, buttercup!
Tiffany: I know! Oh, trust me, I know.
Michael: I can speak from experience now.
Tiffany: Yes. At the same time, though I've worked with teenagers for so long- and I've worked with the real ends of the spectrum with teenagers who are really struggling- I get these moments where I get the sass, the eye rolls, the silent treatment, and the, "Why are you asking me how my day was?"
And I'm like, "Because I care. You have a mom who cares and loves you." But I'm having those joy moments of, "Oh, it's actually kind of cool to have these conversations with you now. I can actually have more adult conversations and connect with you."
To hear you get to finally experience that- and get back what you may have missed through the loss and grief with your son-
Michael: Okay. There's no loss. I'm not going there.
Tiffany: No, I know.
Michael: I hear what you're saying.
Tiffany: Sorry, not to go down that road, but-
Michael: No, yeah-
Tiffany: -it's so beautiful for you.
Michael: I'm grateful for what I have, and I'm becoming a little cringeworthy, too.
Tiffany: Oh!
Michael: It's really cool. I get that, "Aw, Dad- "
Tiffany: You've made it then!
Michael: "Oh, stop- " Yeah!
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: And what's funny is I felt pride.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Where three or four years ago I would have been hurt and thought, "Oh, no," because I was too empathetic and concerned, now I'm like, "Yeah, I'm that dad. I'm that dad, man."
Tiffany: You know you're doing something right.
Michael: And he called me an... you know?
Tiffany: You know you're doing something right! As a therapist, that's how I gauged it when I got called names or really pissed someone off: "We're doing the right thing."
Michael: Yeah, I picked that up, and I had a little celebration going on inside of me: "Yep, I've arrived. I'm a dad."
Tiffany: Yeah, you've arrived.
Michael: "I'm doing a good job."
Tiffany: I tell parents that. I say, "You know, when your kid's really pissed at you because you're holding that hard boundary, and they call you names, just know you're on the right track."
Michael: Yeah, and you're not engaging them at the battle level.
Tiffany: Exactly.
Michael: You're just holding...
Tiffany: You're just holding the line.
Michael: You're just like, "Nope, man. I'm in my sovereignty, and..."
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: That's impenetrable.
Tiffany: It really is.
Michael: Yeah. Wow.
Advice for Parents in Crisis
Tiffany: What advice would you leave with our listeners who have tuned in today to hear your story and maybe are going through something similar that you once did?
Michael: You have to question yourself. You and I touched on it. Why is this situation in my life? What is it telling me about me? Because it's information.
Yeah, it sucks that your kid is in crisis, trouble, drugs, alcohol, or with the police. But until you stop and ask yourself, "What is this telling me?" that's where your curiosity- and humility- kick in. That's where the change begins. That's where it's going to start. It's going to get ugly, and it probably will get worse before it gets better. There is no easy fix.
Stay curious. Ask for help. As you're asking for help- and there's a lot out there- not all of it is necessarily going to be right for you. Learn to use discernment and trust your gut. Just because somebody says they're an expert, they may very well be, but they may not be the right expert for you.
Be patient with yourself. Learn to love yourself, accept yourself, and be okay. It's not the end of the world. Just having the awareness and making the admission that you're part of the problem means you're also part of the solution. That's key. We talked about that, and you know that.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Michael: Help is out there. It'll find you. As soon as you ask for help inside yourself, that help is on its way. I've seen that in my life over and over and over again. I'm not saying it as a platitude because I read it in some book. I've lived it, and I've observed it. Because I've observed it so often, I feel like I have the authority to say that's how life works. I really do.
I hope, and Kris hopes, and his mom hopes- we all hope- that by being here and sharing this story, it helps someone. If our story helps someone, then it was well worth it for me.
Tiffany: 100%. These stories do reach people who need to hear them. Your story, your vulnerability, and your braveness to come on here and share your journey, the heartache, and the healing will hopefully give our listeners some hope.
Michael: Yeah, there is hope. His story, and what that young man accomplished with a lot of help, makes him like a poster child for possibilities.
Tiffany: Absolutely.
Michael: Not every kid is going to be like him, but there are aspects of Kris's story that are woven into every kid's story that has yet to unfold. They're there. No one's life is the exact same.
Tiffany: I think back to that Brené Brown quote about "the man in the arena," right? When you're truly living a vulnerable life, you're going to get kicked down into the dirt. But what matters is that you keep getting back up.
Michael: Yeah.
Tiffany: Keep fighting the fight.
Lessons from Poetry on Parenthood
Michael: There's a poem that became...
Tiffany: Is it Teddy Roosevelt, right?
Michael: No. No. Oriah Mountain Dreamer.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: The Invitation. Have you ever heard of it?
Tiffany: I don't think I have.
Michael: Yeah. I invite you to look it up. Oriah, O-R-I-A-H, Mountain Dreamer.
Tiffany: Okay.
Michael: It's called "The Invitation," and there's a phrase in there about parenthood and- can you wake up in the morning weary, bruised, and battered to the bone, and get up the next day and do what needs to be done to feed the children?
And it's so funny because that poem went through me like a lightning bolt 20, 30, or 35 years ago. Not knowing, fast-forwarding, particularly to that phrase- I didn't know it was like a foreboding... a foreshadowing?
Tiffany: Foreshadowing, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, but that was... I just got up and did what needed to be done.
Tiffany: It's been an honor to be able to hold space for you to tell your story, so thank you so much.
Michael: You're welcome.